Katie Taylor: Outdoor Play, Forest Schools and Maximising Learning Outdoors

00:00:01 Fliss
Welcome back.

00:00:02 Fliss
I’m Fliss, your host of Early Bloom, the podcast where we’re creating connections between everyone in the early years, coming up in this episode.

00:00:11 Katie
I think that sometimes the staffing ratios will also have a big impact on being able to get outdoors if you’ve only got a couple of members of staff indoors.

00:00:21 Katie
and you’re dealing with lots of things inside.

00:00:24 Katie
Obviously we know how hard it is in early years that a child could have an accident or you’ve got lots of things to deliver throughout the day that actually sometimes the outdoors can be seen as Not as.

00:00:35 Katie
is important and we just kind of need to prioritise that I think a little bit more sometimes.

00:00:40 Katie
If we look at the outside environment as we do the inside and put as much sort of ownership onto making it a lovely space that the children can go outside into and really plan that space as we do the inside, so we’re planning our role plays and the sand and the water and things inside, but thinking actually what can I put outside that the children will get the most from?

00:01:01 Katie
I think when I first went into it I thought oh I’ll just be able to go and do some sort of School sessions, but actually it’s really hard going to get the forest school leader qualification, but once you do it, changes that sort of mindset and how you approach things.

00:01:20 Fliss
Hello and thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Early Bloom Podcast.

00:01:23 Fliss
For today’s conversation, we’re welcoming Katie Taylor.

00:01:26 Fliss
Katie is a teacher, a EY First consultant and a forest school leader.

00:01:32 Fliss
You may also know her as the founder of Early Years Outdoor and the author of The Nature Adventure book.

00:01:39 Fliss
Yes.

00:01:39 Fliss
Got that right.

00:01:40 Fliss
Katie, welcome to the podcast.

00:01:42 Katie
Thank you, lovely to be here.

00:01:43 Fliss
Oh, it’s lovely to have you on.

00:01:44 Fliss
So let’s start by getting to know you a little bit more and your journey to where you are today with Early Years Outdoor.

00:01:50 Katie
Yeah, well I started teaching in 2007, so I did my teaching degree in early years at Sheffield Hallam.

00:01:58 Katie
And then since then I’ve been a reception teacher and EYFS leader and I did that for 17 years.

00:02:08 Katie
At the same time when I was teaching I went into my forest school leader qualification and that just sort of transformed the way that I taught and changed everything about how I approach things really.

00:02:21 Katie
So it ignited a passion for outdoor learning and then

00:02:25 Katie
I set up my Instagram and just started sharing ideas and outdoor learning things with other educators and I got quite a big following on social media.

00:02:36 Katie
And from there I went on to write my first book, which was the Nature Adventure book because it was all about the things that I’d sort of been sharing online.

00:02:45 Katie
I’m writing my second book now.

00:02:47 Katie
Oh, it’s exciting.

00:02:48 Katie
Yeah, that one is all about mud kitchens and lots of lovely activities.

00:02:53 Katie
To do with mud kitchens, so I’m doing that currently, and that’s around next year, and I’ve just been creating lots of activity ideas online and things like that, so…

00:03:04 Katie
So lots of things really, really busy.

00:03:06 Katie
So I’ve been out of the classroom since September last year, mainly focusing on my website, doing some consultancy work.

00:03:13 Katie
So I’ve been really busy and still living it and I’ve done a little bit of supply work as well.

00:03:18 Fliss
Still keeping in touch with the classroom.

00:03:20 Fliss
Hard to leave it fully, isn’t it?

00:03:21 Katie
Yeah, it is.

00:03:22 Katie
And I do miss that sort of having my own class and seeing the children every day, but it’s been it’s been great.

00:03:28 Fliss
Oh, nice.

00:03:29 Fliss
And I guess with outdoor learning and stuff, and that’s a lot of what your resources are about.

00:03:34 Fliss
And we know how beneficial outdoor play is for children and the opportunities that it brings, but many settings you do find you see it quite a lot.

00:03:42 Fliss
They have a few barriers and a few challenges to getting outside and making the most of their outdoor space.

00:03:48 Fliss
What are some of the things that you’ve seen?

00:03:50 Katie
I think that right now the curriculum is really full.

00:03:54 Katie
There’s lots of pressure on educators to deliver lots of things throughout the day.

00:03:58 Katie
It could be phonics, it could be maths side of things or whether they’ve just got so many things packed into their day that actually outdoor learning can be seen as an add-on or let’s go outside to just get some fresh air and really we just sort of need to get introduced that so that it’s there all the time and we’re making the most of the outdoor environment.

00:04:19 Katie
I think that sometimes the staffing ratios will also have a big impact on being able to get outdoors if you’ve only got a couple of members of staff indoors and you’re dealing with lots of things inside.

00:04:32 Katie
Obviously we know how hard it is in early years.

00:04:34 Katie
A child could have an accident or you’ve got lots of things to deliver throughout the day that actually sometimes the outdoors can be seen as not as important and we just kind of need to prioritise that I think a little bit more sometimes.

00:04:48 Katie
So just putting that sort of ownership onto educators being able to go outside and deliver their sessions outside.

00:04:56 Katie
So if you’re doing something around a maths activity or any kind of activities, it can be done outside and making sure that we get outdoors as much as possible.

00:05:05 Katie
So yeah, I think lots of things are a sort of barrier to outdooring.

00:05:10 Katie
It could be the weather,

00:05:11 Katie
It could be that you’ve not got a great budget for your outdoor environment, and it’s looking at ways to utilise recycled materials, the natural seasons, and using all of those outdoors as well.

00:05:24 Katie
So there’s lots of barriers, but lots of ways to overcome those.

00:05:28 Fliss
Yeah, definitely.

00:05:28 Fliss
And I always think with the outdoor area on a budget, that’s something that you see loads.

00:05:32 Fliss
I’m going to say a lot on the Facebook groups, you’re always asking people.

00:05:35 Fliss
How do I like improve my outdoor area on a budget and all them things like going to charity shops, the things like pallets, the things that you can do with pallets, tyres, those sort of things.

00:05:43 Fliss
And it’s just making people aware that like it doesn’t have to be a whole new fancy playground equipment.

00:05:48 Fliss
You can like create a really great outdoor environment with really cheap resources and the weather as well.

00:05:54 Fliss
That’s another thing, isn’t it?

00:05:54 Fliss
What’s that quote?

00:05:55 Fliss
It’s no such thing.

00:05:56 Katie
No such thing as bad weather, it’s just inappropriate clothing.

00:05:59 Fliss
Inappropriate clothing.

00:06:00 Fliss
Yeah, that should be just like plastered over every earlier setting just to remind everyone and parents as well.

00:06:05 Fliss
the right clothing, children can go outside and have so much fun.

00:06:09 Fliss
Yeah, I love that.

00:06:10 Katie
I think with the weather side of things, obviously if you’ve got the right kit on, then it’s perfect for your outdoor play and your outdoor learning because if they’re happy, then obviously they can get engaged and they can get outdoors as much as possible and embrace the weather.

00:06:25 Katie
If it’s raining, then let’s change sort of that mindset of what we as educators are saying instead of saying, oh no, it’s raining outside instead.

00:06:34 Katie
yes, let’s go outside, we can get the umbrellas up, we can splash in the puddles and just thinking of that sort of language that we use around children so that they’re not saying, I don’t want to go outside because I’m going to get wet and seeing it as a really exciting opportunity.

00:06:48 Katie
Even windy days and things like that and just bringing things in like making ribbon sticks and waving those and going outside and embracing the weather I think when it’s cold and windy they can

00:07:02 Katie
freeze things and just use the weather to its advantage.

00:07:07 Fliss
Embrace the seasons and bring that into the play in the language that you use and stuff.

00:07:11 Fliss
I think that’s a really good tip.

00:07:13 Fliss
And I guess as well, for those that have not got a great outdoor environment, so maybe like some nurseries have only got a little bit of concrete or whatever, or they’ve not, they can’t really offer a free flow or anything like that, how can they make the most out of that environment?

00:07:26 Fliss
Like what sort of things can they be doing?

00:07:28 Katie
I think that they,

00:07:29 Katie
You can make the most of any space, even if it’s just concrete, you can bring things in so you can have your sort of areas that the children can visit.

00:07:37 Katie
So I think if we make the most of it and you’re giving children opportunities to do things that they wouldn’t necessarily do indoors, outdoors, if you’ve got somewhere where they can balance and climb and build those gross motor skills.

00:07:51 Katie
and then you can utilise, if you’ve got a concrete base, get the chalk paints out and use those on the floor and splash the water on and utilise whatever sort of surface you’ve got there.

00:08:01 Katie
But bring lots of things in just to make the most of that.

00:08:05 Katie
And I think it’s the adults as well, so if they’re excited to go outside, and it might not be a massive area that you’ve got, but you can just pop some things out and have a go at some activities.

00:08:17 Katie
Some children love to manipulate, small materials so you can bring your leaves in and have a go at some activities in the outside area that are the messy things so you can have your mud and your messy things that not necessarily operate the indoors.

00:08:31 Fliss
Yeah I guess with the water tray indoors you’re constantly there with the towel like wiping it up and then like when you go outdoors it’s like do whatever you want with the water it’s fine like make a mess and then I think as well that one with chalk that was one of the when I was in settings the children loved that especially like in the summer we’d sit and like draw around the chalk and stuff like that.

00:08:49 Katie
And it’s really cheap as well.

00:08:51 Katie
Yeah, so just finding things that don’t actually cost the earth that you can bring in and utilise in the outdoors.

00:08:57 Fliss
Yeah, I love that.

00:08:59 Fliss
And I guess you touched on it a little bit.

00:09:00 Fliss
It’s like making the outdoor play purposeful as well, because you said as well, like…

00:09:05 Fliss
some people, you see it as like, let’s just get outdoors and let off a bit of steam.

00:09:09 Fliss
I mean, I used to work in a toddler room and we didn’t have free flow, but it was certain times of the day when we’d go outside and we’d sometimes bring that forward because we’d be like, oh my gosh, these toddlers are going crazy in this room.

00:09:18 Fliss
Let’s get them outside.

00:09:19 Fliss
But then you’re not really necessarily thinking of the learning side of it.

00:09:22 Fliss
You’re kind of just thinking of get them out, let them let off some steam.

00:09:25 Fliss
But actually, if you think about it in a different way,

00:09:28 Fliss
and think about the environment as an extra learning, an extra classroom, that sort of thing.

00:09:33 Fliss
It can have so much more benefit than just letting them out and letting off some steam.

00:09:37 Katie
Yeah, absolutely.

00:09:37 Katie
And I think if we look at the outside environment as we do the inside and put as much sort of ownership onto making it a lovely space that the children can go outside into and really plan that space as we do the inside, so we’re planning our place and the sand and the water and things inside, but thinking actually what can I put outside that the children will get the most?

00:09:58 Katie
most from and you using all of those areas and thinking actually if the children aren’t really great at their fine motor skills or if they’re struggling with some of those gross motor skills which they need later on in their education let’s put something outside and make the most of that and think actually this outside environment is going to build that whole child and it’s going to build all those skills that they need so it’s just as important it’s not just outdoor play it builds the whole child doesn’t it?

00:10:27 Fliss
Yeah definitely and I think that’s a good tip

00:10:29 Fliss
we used to do it where we’d obviously pay a lot of attention to setting up the indoor in the indoor environment and then it comes to going outside and it’s like, I’ve got nothing, we’ve got nothing out there, what do we do?

00:10:38 Fliss
And we like made a big effort to have it on our planning and like everyone would like say some of their key children, what do they need to be working on outdoors, what opportunities can outdoor offer them?

00:10:48 Fliss
And then it made us start thinking about it a lot more rather than just go outside.

00:10:52 Fliss
And I think, yeah, that’s a definitely good point.

00:10:54 Katie
Yeah, I think everything that you do indoors, you can definitely teach outdoors sometimes in a more meaningful way.

00:10:58 Katie
way to the children because they just want to be outside and they need that fresh air and that sort of it’s great for the well-being as well not just that sort of academic side of things it’s perfect for everything so yeah definitely and.

00:11:13 Fliss
You said at the beginning, and we know that you’ve done quite a bit with forest schools.

00:11:16 Fliss
And I guess that’s another part that settings can consider as well.

00:11:20 Fliss
I think from my understanding of forest school, we never really did it in my nursery, but can some of them, do they follow a programme?

00:11:26 Katie
Yeah, so forest school is, it’s building sort of that holistic child.

00:11:32 Katie
It is something that you can do.

00:11:35 Katie
So you can choose whether you just do sort of outdoor learning and you can build your curriculum on that, or you can go into a forest school side of things.

00:11:44 Katie
When I decided to go into it, I did a bit of research and it’s not easy.

00:11:51 Katie
I think when I first went into it, I thought, oh, I’ll just be able to go and do some sort of forest school sessions.

00:11:56 Katie
Actually, it’s really hard going to get the forest school leader qualification, but once you do it, changes that sort of mindset and how you approach things.

00:12:06 Katie
And it’s all about building that sort of holistic development.

00:12:09 Katie
It’s child-led, so it’s not this week we’re going to do this, next week we’re going to do this.

00:12:15 Katie
And it’s sustained over a long period of time, so it’s not just a one-off, let’s do a forest school session.

00:12:20 Katie
If you’re continuously going into your forest school’s outdoor area, mainly a forest, but you can use outdoor spaces as long as it’s a natural space.

00:12:31 Katie
and then the children develop their skills in there based on what they want to do.

00:12:36 Katie
So if they love building dens, climbing, you just let the children go with that and see what they’re interested in and build up those skills when they’re out there.

00:12:44 Katie
So you can introduce fires, which is amazing.

00:12:49 Katie
And some people are quite apprehensive about having a fire with children, but do you know, it’s amazing

00:12:55 Katie
for them to even be able to light their own fire and letting them use a flint and steel.

00:13:00 Katie
So you use a flint and steel and a bit of cotton wool and some natural materials and they can light the spa.

00:13:06 Katie
And they’ve got that.

00:13:06 Fliss
Skill now and then for life.

00:13:08 Fliss
Even I wouldn’t know how to do that.

00:13:09 Fliss
You think sometimes if I was trapped on a desert island, would I know how to start a fire?

00:13:13 Fliss
No, I wouldn’t.

00:13:13 Katie
And sometimes children that actually are inside and they’re finding things really difficult, once you take them outside, they become different children and actually they become the leaders.

00:13:23 Katie
They want to show you how to

00:13:25 Katie
build the dens and can take control, wherever sometimes they can find it really difficult inside.

00:13:29 Katie
So probably school can open up so much more for children.

00:13:32 Fliss
Yeah, but you see like different sides to children as well.

00:13:34 Fliss
Yeah, that’s really nice.

00:13:35 Fliss
And the whole approach, it comes from Scandinavia, right?

00:13:38 Katie
Yeah, so really it sort of got quite popular here in about 1990s side of things, but it’s been going since I think about 1950s from Scandinavia, but then we’ve introduced it and loads of schools obviously adopt that.

00:13:52 Katie
And there’s lots of forest schools that aren’t in schools or nurseries or anything like that.

00:13:56 Katie
So there are forest schools where you can just take your children and be there.

00:13:59 Fliss
There’s some outdoor nurseries that are mainly like outdoor forest schools and then there’s ones that are like nurseries that then have follow.

00:14:03 Katie
The program and run sessions.

00:14:04 Katie
Yeah, there’s two different things, isn’t there?

00:14:06 Katie
So you can have it, you can adopt that in your schools or your nurseries or your settings.

00:14:11 Katie
or you can have a full outdoor forest school.

00:14:14 Fliss
And I always think probably people think, forest, does it have to be in a forest?

00:14:18 Fliss
But people who have nurseries in cities and stuff like, say, a nursery in London, they can still do it, can’t they?

00:14:24 Fliss
Like, find that space.

00:14:25 Fliss
Yeah.

00:14:26 Katie
Just a natural outdoor space because

00:14:28 Katie
Obviously, you won’t have the trees to tie things to, but you can make the most of any sort of natural outpost.

00:14:34 Fliss
Yeah, even like a park and find a little wooden part of that park.

00:14:37 Fliss
Yeah, I always remember we lived near, lived, our nursery was near a little forest like woodland bit and once we tried to get them out and go on like Gruffalo hunts and stuff, but we didn’t do forest school as such, but you see the difference in the children just taking them on a Gruffalo hunt into the woodland and constantly stopping every two minutes to check what’s on the floor, what’s that, what’s that, but like it’s so much, it’s such different opportunities.

00:14:58 Fliss
It is than what they’re getting inside.

00:15:00 Katie
Yeah.

00:15:01 Katie
And they’re amazing.

00:15:02 Katie
They’re just awed by it, aren’t they?

00:15:04 Katie
By natural things.

00:15:05 Katie
And it’s just, if you strip everything back and take away everything that they’re used to indoors, it’s just everything that we’re sort of ingrained to move towards, isn’t it?

00:15:16 Katie
Yeah.

00:15:17 Fliss
Oh, I love that.

00:15:18 Fliss
So nurseries, any managers, nursery?

00:15:21 Fliss
practitioners even listening to this and they think, my gosh, I want to start forest school.

00:15:25 Fliss
How do they start and what do they need to do?

00:15:27 Katie
Yeah, I think if you really look into it and think if you want to go into forest school, you can try out yourself at first and you can try some mini sessions with children.

00:15:37 Katie
So you could have a go at sort of that natural, bringing those natural items in, taking the children outdoors and think, is it for me?

00:15:43 Katie
Do I really want to go into this?

00:15:45 Katie
And then you can look at whether you want some one or two practitioners or teachers or whoever is working with you.

00:15:51 Katie
on to the level 3 for the school course.

00:15:55 Katie
And then mine took, I think, around 18 months.

00:15:58 Fliss
So it’s quite a hefty course.

00:15:59 Katie
Yeah.

00:16:00 Katie
So I’d recommend sort of a face-to-face one rather than an online one.

00:16:04 Katie
That’s where you go and you have practical sessions and you do it.

00:16:07 Katie
So you’re the children and you learn lots of path.

00:16:09 Fliss
I guess you’re not allowed to use the fire unless you’ve done that.

00:16:14 Katie
Before you can get your insurance, you need to have done your qualification and made sure that you’ve got everything in place, because you’ll need things like policies and all of your risk assessments in place, and it teaches you everything on the course anyway.

00:16:26 Katie
So, yeah, but if you don’t want to go down for the school, you can…

00:16:30 Katie
look at things like doing your curriculum so that it just links to outdoor learning.

00:16:34 Katie
There’s lots of other companies, there’s Alfresco Learning, they have lots of outdoor learning plans where you can just take those and take them into your classroom or your nurseries and do it that way.

00:16:45 Fliss
Oh, nice.

00:16:46 Fliss
And I guess this other side of it as well, it builds on that risky play, which is what sometimes it’s hard to let children develop that risk awareness and stuff like that in a nursery because obviously you’re not going to let them climb over the cabinets and stuff and it straight away.

00:17:01 Fliss
But if your outdoor area doesn’t offer them opportunities to engage in that risky play, it gives them an element.

00:17:06 Katie
Yeah, because they need that resilience, don’t they, children?

00:17:09 Katie
And I think indoors, we sort of guide them to everything, don’t we?

00:17:13 Katie
Obviously, they have their continuous provision and things.

00:17:15 Katie
But we’re sort of guiding the children to activities and we’re working with them and doing the inputs and things.

00:17:21 Katie
Whereas in the outdoors, they’re free, aren’t they?

00:17:23 Katie
And they can take the risks themselves.

00:17:26 Katie
They can climb the trees and they can work out actually what happens if I put my leg here and my hand here without someone saying, don’t do that, don’t do this.

00:17:34 Katie
And it’s sort of facilitating that rather than pressuring the children into activities and being there as a guide and helping them.

00:17:42 Katie
I love that.

00:17:43 Fliss
And it’s the language as well with that sort of thing because you do.

00:17:46 Fliss
It’s very hard to get out of the mindset of saying, be careful and changing it.

00:17:51 Fliss
I mean, even like to this day when I see my nieces and nephews automatically, I’m like, be careful.

00:17:56 Fliss
But I might then have to like check myself and think, no, don’t say that.

00:18:00 Fliss
Like think of different ways that you can like tell them.

00:18:02 Katie
Yeah, and just think about, oh, where do you think you might put your foot to be safe?

00:18:06 Katie
Or what would happen if we did this?

00:18:08 Katie
And it is it’s changing your mindset, isn’t it?

00:18:11 Katie
And we always obviously want to look after the children, but allowing them to have their own risks.

00:18:16 Katie
and take those on their own, then that’s how they will build up that resilience and that risk taking themselves.

00:18:21 Fliss
Yeah, because if a child’s always been getting told, like, be careful when they’re engaging in risky play, then you might do one of them for a school sessions where they have the opportunity to do fight, but they’re like, oh, no, like, I don’t want to do that.

00:18:31 Katie
And it’s already in stillness.

00:18:34 Katie
And then they’re a little bit apprehensive to try new things because we’re always telling them, maybe be careful there, don’t do this.

00:18:41 Katie
And let them just have autonomy to just go and do that themselves.

00:18:44 Fliss
I love that.

00:18:46 Fliss
Yeah.

00:18:47 Fliss
I want to be in a setting that’s like that.

00:18:49 Katie
Yeah.

00:18:49 Fliss
It’s one thing that makes me want to go back into settings, like doing that sort of thing.

00:18:53 Fliss
And I guess with forest school or even just outdoor in general, like you’ve got so many resources and you’ve made so many things, but what are some of your favourite activities to do with the children?

00:19:02 Katie
I absolutely love the fireside things.

00:19:04 Katie
I think with the young children when they first make that spark and they make a fire themselves, I think that is amazing.

00:19:10 Katie
But obviously that comes

00:19:11 Katie
with Forest School and I think for activity side of things, have you heard of Hapa Zome with the Japanese art of bashing nature?

00:19:19 Katie
So you’d have just a piece of maybe material and some hammers and some nature and they can bash that and the pigments come through.

00:19:26 Fliss
Free from like the leaves and stuff.

00:19:27 Katie
Yeah, so you could get a flower or a petal or anything like that and the leaves from, fresh ones are better and you put them down and they could have a go at making their name or just a picture and then they hammer them with the hammer and it comes through when you

00:19:41 Katie
You can use that for bunting, for pictures.

00:19:43 Fliss
Oh, I love that.

00:19:45 Katie
Yeah, I love doing that with them.

00:19:46 Katie
And obviously all the skills involved in that, they’re gross motor skills, they’re hammering away, they’re using the fine motor skills, hand-eye coordination.

00:19:53 Katie
So that’s, I love that one.

00:19:56 Katie
But even just things like making little nature ones and having a go at that.

00:20:00 Katie
So I love it all.

00:20:02 Fliss
One of my favourite in winter would be leaving a tough tray with loads of water and then coming out the next morning and being like, what’s happened to the tough tray?

00:20:11 Fliss
you’ve got to do it when you know that it’s going to be a freezing cold night.

00:20:14 Fliss
But even that, like that adds that different element to outdoor play during winter, doesn’t it?

00:20:18 Fliss
Instead of them being like, oh, it’s cold and it’s like, it’s fine, like we can go out, I mean, it might be cold, but we’re going to put our coat on, we’re going to wrap up, but the ice is cold.

00:20:27 Fliss
The ice is cold as you, like that sort of thing, and like you build that, you build it up, don’t you?

00:20:31 Katie
And they can put things like the things from inside, and they might have a dinosaur, and they can pop that in a bucket of water and see what happens, and then talk about how to make it melt and how to make it escape out.

00:20:41 Katie
There’s.

00:20:42 Fliss
So many opportunities outdoors and I think it is just coming back to that like you might not think you’ve got a great outdoor environment but thinking of ways that you can make the most out of it.

00:20:52 Fliss
Even the ones we’ve just touched on there, they’re all using like natural things, it’s using the seasons, it’s using nature and a few extra resources that aren’t going to cost loads, maybe resources you’ve already got inside.

00:21:03 Fliss
So it’s just changing that mindset instead of thinking and being a bit maybe negative about it, thinking oh we’ve not got a great outdoor space, we can’t do anything and just think like how can we?

00:21:12 Katie
Absolutely.

00:21:12 Katie
Just embrace whatever you’ve got.

00:21:14 Katie
And use sticks.

00:21:15 Katie
Children love sticks, don’t they?

00:21:16 Katie
Use pebbles and things like that.

00:21:18 Katie
And they can just use it in the mud kitchen.

00:21:21 Katie
You don’t need a fancy mud kitchen.

00:21:22 Katie
You can get a few pots and pans and put them on a plank.

00:21:25 Katie
Children will spend hours making their own mixtures and concoctions there, so yeah.

00:21:31 Fliss
Great.

00:21:31 Fliss
And what is the cable reels as well?

00:21:34 Fliss
I loved them until I put it out and I painted it with the chalkboard black paint, I think it was, and then they could draw on it until they didn’t want to draw on it.

00:21:43 Fliss
They discovered that the holes in the middle, they can put all the stuff down and I’ll be like, Oh my gosh, where’s that gone?

00:21:49 Fliss
It’s all the way down there.

00:21:50 Fliss
Like, you put chalk on it and the chalk would end up straight down there.

00:21:53 Katie
Absolutely.

00:21:54 Katie
That can be a learning difference.

00:22:00 Fliss
I do love outdoor play.

00:22:01 Fliss
It’s amazing.

00:22:02 Fliss
In today’s society, obviously, there’s a lot of screens and it’s a big worry for many parents and practitioners as well.

00:22:08 Fliss
I mean, we did do an episode about it and we spoke about how it can be used in a beneficial way, but I guess for them children that maybe are having it,

00:22:16 Fliss
all the time and it’s parents aren’t maybe aware of the benefits of using it in a positive way and they’re just having passive screen time.

00:22:23 Fliss
What can that kind of do for children?

00:22:25 Katie
I think screens absolutely have a place in today’s society and they’re everywhere and I use the screen a lot and I’m sure lots of adults do as well.

00:22:34 Katie
So screens are always going to be part of our daily use but I think that for us as educators we can balance that out and we can just get outdoors and we can make the most of being outside.

00:22:46 Katie
so that if children are on the screens quite a lot, then we can make sure that by going outside and making the most of the outdoor environment that we’re balancing it up.

00:22:55 Katie
I mean, I saw a quote where some children are spending up to six hours a day on a screen and that can add up to eight days in a month, which is a crazy amount of time and over the year, three months in a year based on a screen.

00:23:12 Katie
and it can have an impact on their eyesight.

00:23:14 Katie
So myopia is where the children are short-sighted.

00:23:18 Katie
Whereas if they get outside and they’re using their eyes to scan and look into the distance and they’re seeing all the natural colours, that can really

00:23:28 Katie
aid sort of really healthy eye development.

00:23:31 Katie
So if they’re outside and they’re playing, they’re looking up at the trees and they’re looking up at all the distances, then that will help with their eyesight.

00:23:39 Katie
Whereas if they’re obviously staring at a screen for quite a lengthy period of time, that can have an impact on their short-sightedness.

00:23:46 Katie
So just

00:23:47 Katie
But it can say, you can say up to two hours a day outside, then that can really have an impact on their eye health as well.

00:23:54 Fliss
That’s very interesting.

00:23:55 Fliss
Yeah, I guess I’m thinking of it in that way, and I guess that’s like probably like passive screen time where they’re literally like just staring at a YouTube video and that sort of thing.

00:24:02 Fliss
And it’s just like, you see it quite a lot, like what happened to childhood, like when we’d be out, I think like my childhood, I’d be out on the streets playing and obviously like the way that the world is now is you don’t see that nowhere near as often, but being outdoors, like you want to be outdoors as a kid, don’t you?

00:24:15 Fliss
want to be out there playing.

00:24:16 Fliss
I always remember like

00:24:17 Fliss
making potions in the spring, like we’d be on our road and all the blossom petals would fall and we literally all just sit on the pavement with like plastic bottles and like crushing all these things but then we’d knock on everyone else’s houses and be like, do you want a perfume?

00:24:30 Katie
Yeah, and we’re crushing them in.

00:24:32 Fliss
That was lovely.

00:24:33 Fliss
Yeah, and.

00:24:34 Katie
That’s a memory that I have as well and even just sort of making a mud pie and doing all those things.

00:24:40 Katie
It’s just naturally what children love doing and I think we can put those things outside for them to do it and it’s just a nice balance.

00:24:47 Fliss
As well, some parents might come to nursery or school with worries being like, they’ve been on the screen for a bit too long, I’m struggling and stuff and they might be asking you for help and stuff and you can say, offer advice of like, get outdoors and like you can use your expertise to say what the outdoors like offers and that sort of thing.

00:25:05 Katie
Yeah.

00:25:05 Fliss
And it help them in that way.

00:25:06 Katie
Yeah.

00:25:07 Fliss
Oh, I love that.

00:25:09 Fliss
To finish the episode, you might have seen with our previous guests, I like to wrap it up by asking our guests to finish the sentence.

00:25:16 Fliss
To me, working in the early years is…

00:25:19 Katie
I think to me, working in the early years is all about sharing the joy of the world and experiencing it with the children.

00:25:27 Katie
So it can be the joy and the wonder of, wow, this is a leaf, what can we turn it into?

00:25:32 Katie
And just experiencing all those lovely moments with children.

00:25:35 Katie
I love that.

00:25:38 Fliss
Well, thank you for being on.

00:25:39 Katie
No, thank you.

00:25:40 Katie
Thank you for having me.