Ashley Wilson, Stuart Cloke, Angelica Celinska: The Impact of Outdoor Learning on SEND

0:16
Today we have three very special guests, Ashley Wilson, managing Director of MO Education and Treehouse Club Nurseries.

0:23
We also have Stuart Cloke, head of early years education at Step Start Nurseries and known for his advocacy in early years mental health and well-being.

0:31
Angelica Celinska, the founder of the Voice of Early Childhood podcast.

0:36
Thank you all for being here and welcome.

0:39
I’m really excited to touch on the subject of outdoor learning and children with SEN.

0:45
I think it’s it’s something that, you know, I was actually doing some research and came across some really interesting stats that I want to share with you.

0:57
So basically I came across, so five years ago, 6.4% of children ages 0 through 5 were diagnosed with SEN.

1:07
And although most of our viewers are nursery owners and earliest practitioners, you know, we have the occasional parent that is now viewing this.

1:15
So for parents that don’t know what SEN stands for, it’s children with special education needs.

1:22
And so I was shocked to see these numbers because so we’re talking 6.4%, right, five years ago.

1:30
Fast forward to now, that number has nearly doubled to 11.6% of children ages 0 through 5.

1:37
And to even have a, you know, a better idea, that’s 168,000 children alone in England.

1:46
And so I just wanted to get a feel of what, what do you, you know, what do you think about these numbers and the rise of children diagnosed with SEN?

1:54
And also, do you feel that we are on the right path?

1:59
I certainly think it’s positive that we’re getting early diagnosis for the children.

2:04
So it may seem to parents that that number has grown and there may be concerns with that, but they’re actually getting early diagnosis.

2:11
Staff are getting better training to identify any needs that the children or anything that we can support the children with.

2:17
So I think it’s a positive thing.

2:19
Yeah, I absolutely agree with Ashley.

2:22
I do think that there has always been children with SEN in our settings and our nurseries.

2:28
And I think Ashley hit the nail on the head by saying we are just getting better at diagnosing and early intervention is key.

2:36
And I think there are so many amazing settings and individuals out there that are amazing at the early intervention that we are just supporting them in a much more holistic way that is better for them.

2:47
Yeah, and I think it shouldn’t be a worry for parents.

2:50
It should be them having that understanding that actually my child, like you both said, is supported here and because they’ve been diagnosed earlier, that means they can have that support right from the beginning instead of struggling that whole time.

3:03
And that’s kind of what we used to see before children only being diagnosed at school level and it’s too late.

3:09
Yeah.

3:09
Because they’ve, they’ve already had all these difficulties and they may have been almost, I guess, like put off learning and they don’t have that kind of lifelong learning approach and mindset.

3:19
They don’t have that resilience because everything has just been so difficult for them.

3:23
And they’ve been, they’ve not been recognised as having specific needs.

3:29
And it’s, I think it’s a tricky one of pinpointing children of saying, you know, you’ve you’re diagnosed with this.

3:36
And actually some parents worry that it’s almost isolating their child and saying, you know, this is during this.

3:43
Yeah, exactly.

3:44
Yeah.

3:45
But I think with more diagnosis, that’s changing because it’s not just this one child in the class, you know, or just a handful of children actually.

3:52
We’re seeing lots of different needs.

3:54
And it’s not this big scary thing anymore.

3:56
It’s just everybody’s different.

3:57
You know, we talk about the unique child in early years and I think that’s it’s kind of the way to see things rather than there’s a problem here.

4:03
Actually, every child is unique, right?

4:06
No.

4:06
And I completely agree with that.

4:08
So, you know, so when it comes to creating like a strategy, you know, to help support staff and and parents, what, what kind of strategies do you implement to, to give, you know, the support to families that they need when dealing with children with son?

4:22
Yeah, I think it’s about having that 360 view of that child and the family.

4:27
You know you’re not just supporting the child with that additional need, you’re supporting the family who also may need support may be struggling to come to terms with the diagnosis and that can often be a process for parents.

4:38
So I think it’s really important that we are adopt that overall encompassing role within supporting children and families.

4:46
We’ve seen ensuring that kind of you’re building that appropriate profile of that child, ensuring that kind of you’re aware of their individual needs, because again, there could be 10 or 11 children in your setting who have an additional need.

4:59
But each of those will be very unique in terms of their own profiles and their own abilities and restrictions and challenges that they’ll face.

5:08
So I think it’s being aware of that really.

5:10
Right.

5:11
And so just to have a a clear understanding since, I mean, I’ve never worked in a nursery personally.

5:16
So how do you accommodate?

5:17
So you like how how would that look like?

5:20
Because I know it would vary from ages.

5:22
So let’s say from toddlers, the newborns, how does the curriculum change for them learning frameworks?

5:29
Like could you give me some examples of how that would look like?

5:32
Yeah.

5:33
So I think you’ve got to understand that the curriculum and the opportunities that they are accessing will be different.

5:40
It doesn’t mean that they will be, they can’t access them, it just means it will look different for them.

5:45
So it’s again, making sure you’ve got that picture in your head of what that will look like for that child and ensuring that where possible those children are getting that individualised experience within your setting and your team have that appropriate training.

5:58
And you know, there are legal documents such as the SEND code of practise that highlights that SEND is everybody’s responsibility.

6:05
So you don’t necessarily have to have a diploma in SEN or a degree in special educational needs, but you have to have an attitude and ability to be able to support those children.

6:16
So there’s no need for staff to take special courses then for this, you know, to to accommodate children with them in any way.

6:22
So I think it’s positive that they do take additional courses because there is such a wide variety of SEN and as you exactly rightly said, every child is unique.

6:33
So meeting every child’s needs, there’s a lot of courses that that staff need to do and the more training that staff have, the better because again, early intervention, just getting the small things in place that they can support that child for their early education is paramount.

6:49
And now are there any organisations that help nurseries when it comes to the, you know, enhancing programmes that can help with this?

6:56
Or do you work with any?

6:57
Have you worked with any in the past?

6:59
The the council is very good at supporting some areas are better than others, absolutely, But there are a lot of courses online.

7:07
There’s a lot of people that can come in and do additional training.

7:12
So there is a lot more companies being set up to come and get this training to settings and it’s it’s really, really great for them.

7:18
And do you see the impact that it’s, you know, that that’s having now?

7:22
I definitely see the impact to my nurseries that this additional training.

7:26
10 years ago there was a very small amount of training in my it’d be very quick.

7:30
Now it’s a long that you can take a whole SEND course.

7:34
It will take about a year to complete and it’s more in depth trainers, a better understanding and the children.

7:40
Absolutely.

7:41
That’s amazing.

7:42
And so now going into learning frameworks, right?

7:45
And, and something that I I didn’t know about.

7:47
So I think it’d be really good to share.

7:49
And maybe this is more so a question for you.

7:51
So you know, do you feel that outdoor learning is plays a more positive impact in a child’s life with SEN like compared to maybe I don’t know, I mean, so, so you have a forestry nursery, right?

8:07
Forestry.

8:07
OK, so how does that differ?

8:08
Maybe let me change the question up.

8:11
So how would that differ from a Montessori?

8:15
So the, the Montessori approach is very different and very similar at the same point.

8:20
So it’s a very structured.

8:22
So for me, I, I like our approach for our school supports them very, very well.

8:28
We have a lot of SEND children that join us.

8:30
Montessori is very different.

8:31
It does support SEND as well.

8:34
All learning approaches do support SEND needs.

8:37
So Montessori is extremely structured.

8:39
Forestry is not structured.

8:41
It’s very much about the children’s interest.

8:44
Children with SEND do very, very well outside.

8:47
They get in that space, they get in that natural, yeah.

8:53
Like they’re able to explore themselves a bit more and able to see what areas that, you know, maybe they could explore even more to help them with, you know, develop certain skills.

9:02
So, OK, so you would say then outdoor learning might have more of a positive impact with children with son then maybe a more traditional learning kind of approach.

9:12
We definitely see a huge benefit for children and outside with sin and I’m sure not only sun, right?

9:18
Like it’s just, it’s good for children to have that experience to be outdoors and explore and, and so that’s really great.

9:26
And so how long have you?

9:28
So how many nurseries do you have and how long have you been in in the early year sector?

9:33
So we have 10 settings now.

9:35
So we’ve got children from 8 weeks old up to 11 years old through nursery, preschool, out of school clubs.

9:41
I’ve now been in the industry for 14 years.

9:43
Oh, wow.

9:44
And what about you, Stuart?

9:46
So yeah, I’ve been in the industry for about 16 years.

9:50
It’s all I’ve ever done.

9:51
And yeah, we have 4 sites currently seem to be 6 taken right through from nought to five.

9:58
So really focusing on that early years provision.

10:00
Right.

10:01
And Angelica, in what ways do you, So you’ve had your podcast for quite some time now.

10:06
Yeah, a year or just over.

10:07
Yeah, right.

10:08
You were just mentioning earlier that you’re about to be on your 100th right planned in in advanced about 100.

10:13
But at the moment, yeah.

10:15
So I’m at the time of recording this about 65 or so.

10:19
Yeah.

10:19
So then and then what ways would you say your podcast has supported, you know, children with SEN and highlighting, you know, these issues that are now ongoing with, you know, regarding, you know, accommodating children with sun and nurseries and making sure that the right funding is there for the voice of early childhood really works to ensure that voices from the early childhood sector are heard as well as wider early childhood communities.

10:44
So families and parents and healthcare professionals.

10:47
So that is done through the podcast mainly through articles as well and through the conference or conferences.

10:54
So really it’s about sharing all of the different expertise out there.

10:59
So you know, expertise of healthcare professionals, bringing that together with families and their experiences and educators as well and ensuring that these voices are heard out there, You know, we can all learn something from everyone.

11:12
So for instance, when we’re talking just now about the benefits of the outdoors for children with SEN, so I’ve had Jenny Smiley on, he talks about the therapeutic nature of the outdoors specifically for children with SEN, but also for all children as well.

11:28
So she shares her practise and she runs a forest school.

11:33
So people like that and then that really kind of helps us to advocate for outdoors exactly the impact it has on children.

11:43
I mean, in general, right?

11:46
You know, I love that there’s been such a change in like seeing how important it is for to shift from traditional learning methods, right?

11:54
Kids aren’t meant to just be stuck sitting somewhere.

11:57
They’re meant to explore, to fall to, to, you know, just learn from their environment, right?

12:02
So it’s really good to to push that kind of learning experience.

12:06
And maybe this is more for you, Ashley.

12:08
What would you say is the most rewarding thing about of taking children outdoors?

12:14
The most rewarding thing I would say is just seeing the change in them, but for them to be free to learn how they feel comfortable.

12:22
You know, some children will be happily comfortable inside writing with a pen and paper.

12:26
We have other children that will want to write in the mud with a stick.

12:29
You know, having that freedom and that ability to be in a natural environment is such a difference for them.

12:35
And it’s, it’s lovely to see and it’s really, really rewarding when they’re going to school and you see them hitting their targets each and every time doing their school readiness and they’re so prepared.

12:45
So we noticed the education rockets.

12:48
Yeah, that’s amazing.

12:50
And so when it comes to creating the curriculum, is, is that what you focus on at step?

12:55
Sorry, creating the curriculum.

12:57
How does that look?

12:58
Yeah.

12:58
So I think it’s really important that we’re always evolving with the curriculum.

13:02
It doesn’t stay stagnant.

13:03
Things change.

13:05
We we’re very led by current research and our own kind of findings and investigations by getting onto the shop floor as to say, you know, and get into the roots of practise and, and see kind of what’s working, what’s not working.

13:18
And what works for some of our settings won’t work for our other settings because it very much depends on the cohort of children that you have and the vulnerability of some of those children.

13:29
You know, some of our settings are in much higher areas of deprivation, so that the experience that those children get on a daily basis, generally with SEN or without SEN are very different to those children who are in our typically more affluent areas.

13:43
So it’s about making sure that that experience is as bespoke as possible for those children.

13:48
And what are the difference you see from, you know, like do you feel that the parents are more involved or less involved when it comes to children with SEN, when it comes to deprived areas or affluent areas?

14:00
You see a difference in, you know, the relationship between like staff and parents, not necessarily in terms of that.

14:08
One of the things I would say that we have highlighted particularly against the affluence and the deprivation is that and many of our parents, particularly those with children we’ve seen in more affluent areas will be kind of, we call them time poor parents.

14:23
So they’re kind of parents who don’t have a lot of time because of the jobs that they have and the demands that they have on businesses that they run.

14:30
So that they kind of feel a little bit guilty and have that typical parental guilt around kind of not being there enough.

14:36
Whereas I think for some of the parents in our more deprived areas, they’re not necessarily time poor, but they’re kind of, you know, there are more constraints on their finances.

14:44
We, you know, we have parents accessing food banks, you know, and parents accessing community services a lot more in those deprived areas.

14:51
So kind of they’re relying on us a lot more for a different kind of level of support.

14:55
Have you ever and it maybe this is more for, you know, you, Stuart and Ashley, since you both directly work with the nursery.

15:03
Have you ever seen the case of a child being undiagnosed?

15:07
But you are, you know, maybe thinking that, you know, the child might have some sort of special needs and the parent kind of neglecting that.

15:17
Have you ever come across a case like that?

15:20
I definitely think we’ve probably we’ve both had cases where it’s taken a long time.

15:24
Firstly for the the parents to come on board with this may be something here we may need to investigate this that can delay things or the parent half being on board and the actual diagnosis then taken a while.

15:37
What I do find is when they start the the diagnosis process process in some areas, again, you’ll probably find that you have to push hard to to to actually get the child.

15:48
I think there’s better healthcare in some areas and there is others.

15:51
There’s better setups for diagnosis in some departments than others.

15:56
We find that quite a lot.

15:58
Yeah.

15:58
And I also think there there can be a challenge around getting some of our families to engage with those core services in the more deprived areas because they feel kind of it will be a reflection on their parenting.

16:10
They’ll kind of have quite high levels of anxiety already around kind of accessing health visitors and any other kind of service that is provided for for them.

16:22
They they kind of will see that as a little bit of kind of a negative connotation.

16:26
So it’s really just working with them.

16:27
We always say to our teams kind of as frustrating than it can be to kind of be in a different space for them.

16:32
All we can do really is kind of meet them where they’re at and work with them to bring them up to where we need them to be.

16:39
So I think it’s really important that again, it’s not a one-size-fits-all.

16:42
It’s very much unique to the family, the child, they could be a range of different circumstances while that parent is struggling to access services, their own health, their own physical and mental health, right?

16:52
You know, there could be a number of factors.

16:53
So we do need to take that into consideration as well.

16:56
That is so challenging.

16:57
And you know what that makes me think it’s so important to build a relationship with the parents and the families so that you know, you, there’s that open line of communication, right?

17:05
And and then since you’ve worked with, you know, a lot of early years experts around this topic, what, what do you think would be like the negative impacts when it, when it comes to ignoring or neglecting the fact that, you know, your child may need help, You know, that extra support, that extra help.

17:20
What if a child goes so long and diagnosed with something as early years practitioners?

17:25
I feel like you’re very much aware and have an idea of when that child needs extra support.

17:31
What, what could the, you know, what’s the impact that that child could have if they don’t receive the support they need in time within these formative years?

17:41
Like I was saying earlier, if they’re not diagnosed early enough, then they’re ready.

17:47
They already experienced so many, so many different challenges before well before they come to school.

17:52
And actually when they get to school, that transition point is really pivotal because that’s when things get a little bit or a lot more in some cases, structured.

18:01
And then that child who may really need support with regulating their emotions or may not be ready in terms of being able to support their own self-care, like feed themselves and go to the toilet independently When they reach that school age.

18:16
Because they’ve not had that support in place to really get them and maybe a little bit more independent or because they’ve not got a 1 to 1 educator with them in school, then they’re going to really struggle unfortunately and come across even more challenges in terms of being almost like forced into doing things that they’re just not developmentally ready to do.

18:39
Because they’re just, they just haven’t developed all of those skill sets that the other children have developed.

18:46
And that’s absolutely fine.

18:47
And then they may not really hear anyone.

18:49
We kind of say them and, and the others, there’s not, we don’t really want to be having that anymore.

18:53
Like we said at the start, it’s about the unique childhood.

18:56
So it’s just unfortunate that life will get even harder for them because they haven’t been supported from the beginning.

19:03
I think that’s kind of the the main thing that kind of just spirals into more challenges for them.

19:08
Unfortunately, no, that that’s, that’s a lot to think about, right?

19:13
Thinking about the, you know, the the impact it has long term on a child’s life.

19:18
And so do you think that there’s enough programmes out there, you know, social programmes to help support?

19:23
Do you feel like it’s there’s not enough being funded?

19:26
Yeah, I think there’s definitely been a decline.

19:28
I think we would all agree with that.

19:30
You know, if we go back X amount of years, there were wonderful organisations called the Surestar Children’s Centres where they would directly feed into not only those vulnerable families but also the community and they play a real pivotal part.

19:43
There are still a handful around, few and far between.

19:47
Through different spending cuts and different kind of issues that have kind of caused them to close.

19:52
They’ve become unviable through no fault of their own.

19:55
So I think there isn’t enough to support them and kind of picking up on previous points around children, particularly with SEN.

20:02
And they’re often forced to go into kind of mainstream primary schools where some of them aren’t just developmentally ready or appropriate to go into those kind of settings.

20:12
And they’re kind of forced to adapt to a system rather than a system adapting to them.

20:17
So I think it’s real really pivotal that kind of more discussions around.

20:22
What schooling looks like on a holistic viewpoint.

20:25
Is, is is happening because something needs to change.

20:29
Yeah.

20:29
The schools need to be prepared to have the right systems and processes in place to support these children transitioning.

20:35
Now that makes sense.

20:37
And so just out of curiosity, what, so where did your interest and, and passion for early years?

20:44
Like where, where did this come from?

20:46
Maybe start with you?

20:47
And so my background is children’s mental health and adult mental health.

20:51
And I while training for that, I was a childminder and absolutely loved how the children’s minds worked, how they learnt and studied more and more for it.

21:02
And ended up opening my first preschool, then first nursery doing the Forest School, was the first to bring Forest School to Essex and absolutely loved it, loved the difference that it made to the children.

21:13
Yeah, well, it’s really nice.

21:15
Yeah.

21:15
I think for me, we were talking about this before we came into the recording studio.

21:20
For me, it was something I’ve always just done.

21:21
It’s just, it’s always been a big part of my life and it’s all I’ve ever done.

21:25
And I’ve had, you know, my mum works in a in a primary school and has done for many, many years.

21:30
So I’ve always been around that kind of environment and many people in my family, educators and teachers.

21:36
And I’ve got many friends who work in the sector still.

21:39
So it’s always been a massive part of my life and just seeing that kind of impact that you can have.

21:45
You know, I always say to my team, we’ve got kind of a quote on the, the staff room more about kind of we are educating, you know, and teaching our future doctors, teachers, prime ministers of the world.

21:56
So kind of if that is not a brilliant job to go into, then what other job can you do with that?

22:02
Well said.

22:03
Well said.

22:03
Yeah.

22:04
We’re shaping tomorrow’s astronauts.

22:07
Yeah.

22:08
Yeah, I love that.

22:08
Yeah.

22:09
Yeah.

22:09
Thank you for asking that question.

22:10
I think for me, very similar to what Stuart said, I was kind of always around that environment of being in early years.

22:17
I kind of stepped into it from a young age and and loved it for so many different reasons, like the outdoors really was something I was so passionate about and doing.

22:27
Eva, our schools or woodland learning with the children and really seeing how much it brings to their development and how much they love being outside and then stepping.

22:37
What made me kind of really step out of practise is thinking that I can make even more of an impact on a wider range of educators and then they can make more of an impact on the children families they work with.

22:47
So for instance, with the voice of early childhood, it’s all about making all of that amazing knowledge out there more accessible to everyone.

22:55
So it’s not kind of just stuck in academia where it’s really hard to access that for different reasons, either have to pay for it or the language is quite challenging.

23:06
So it’s not accessible to everybody.

23:08
So I’m really kind of working on that now, kind of being passionate about sharing all that amazing knowledge out there with more educators and families as well.

23:17
Yeah, that’s lovely.

23:18
Yeah.

23:19
And I love that you’re doing that.

23:20
You know, I think it’s so important to strengthen this community to, you know, and I love the fact that you want it to be accessible to everyone.

23:27
I think so important, especially if you want to make a difference in someone’s life, right, because you could learn so much from someone else.

23:33
And and you know, since we’re all in the early years, I kind of want to know, give me a brief background story on like how your early years were.

23:42
How is your upbringing?

23:45
Yes, to be honest, I was brought up mostly by my nan and she was Irish, very outdoors.

23:52
English.

23:52
Yeah, it’s where Northern or Southern?

23:54
Southern Irish.

23:55
So she always told me to, in her own words, to learn a child, you need to take a child outside.

24:00
So in a home, that’s where it stands from.

24:03
It all starts there.

24:04
That’s the root of this now.

24:06
So her big thing was if you want any child to learn, then you need to take them outside.

24:11
You need to to allow them to be natural and let them be children and learn through play and carried it on.

24:17
Lovely.

24:17
And Sarah, how has your earlier shaped you?

24:19
Yeah, I think similar to Ashley, I was mainly brought up by my mum.

24:23
It was a very close knit childhood.

24:25
We had grandparents involved heavily.

24:28
We kind of were outside a lot and you know, we were just being children.

24:33
I think we were just having fun and and that simple joy of jumping in puddles and digging in the mud and just kind of knocking on your friend’s house 2 doors down and going to the shops just for a couple of hours.

24:44
You know, I think that’s just childhood definitely has changed, but I think we can probably all have quite similar experiences.

24:52
I think.

24:52
Yeah, definitely similar experiences because I was going to say a lot of my experiences were outdoors as well and very much kind of very child led and play based what I know to be now.

25:01
But back then I I just remember just always being outside and that kind of, you know, thing that people talk about your parents don’t really know where you are, but not in like a negative way.

25:10
But you know, you’re just somewhere down the road exploring and somewhere in there like a big pile of sand, probably that builders leftover and it’s not like anything.

25:19
Yeah, just running their foot around.

25:23
And I and I agree and I relate and you know, it’s so sad to think about the impact technology is having.

25:28
I mean, we we also have to see the positive side of technology, right?

25:31
And that’s a whole other topic for a whole other day.

25:33
But it also takes away from children being outdoors, right?

25:37
And not in that experience that they need to just be kids and be outdoors.

25:41
And, and it’s unfortunate that, you know, I see so many kids these days, toddlers with an iPad everywhere they go.

25:47
You go to restaurants and, you know, because the parents don’t want to deal with them.

25:51
They don’t want that whatever 10 hears, take the phone, you know, watch a movie just and then and then I think that’s so sad that they’re not like using their hands to, you know, play with things and, and play with colours and figure things out on their own.

26:03
They’re just like stuck to an iPad.

26:05
So I in what ways do you think maybe technology is impacting children negatively and positively?

26:12
I think exactly how you said, I mean, that technology is a is a positive, but you have to have a positive relationship with many areas of your life being seeing the positives of going outside, not on being made to go outside and it’s raining and, you know, seeing them the different positives is really, really important.

26:29
Stuck on an iPad is not going to do your mental health any good either.

26:35
So, yeah, I mean, I think just touching on that, I think there is a, you know, there is a place for technology as the world changes.

26:41
And but it should always be used to kind of extend or enhance that learning opportunity to follow on from an area of an interest or to use the vast technology.

26:52
We’ve got to look things up and learn more.

26:55
But at the base of it, it should, you know, it should just be there as a kind of secondary element and the joy of childhood and the joy of play should be at the at the front.

27:06
Yeah, I totally agree with that.

27:08
And I think it’s all about the educator or adult and the environment being the 1st and 2nd teacher and not not technology, unfortunately, like what you mentioned, technology is seen to be more of like a behaviour management technique in a lot of families.

27:25
And well said.

27:26
Yeah, that that’s just something that it shouldn’t be used for it.

27:29
You know it it should be exactly what you said should do it as supplementing learning and yeah, exactly really I think it’s it’s got so many benefits for really showing children that you can find out more.

27:40
So I always say to parents especially it’s OK if your child asked you a question that you don’t know the answer to, just say we can find out together.

27:47
Let’s research this together be Co researchers and then you can Google it or whatever.

27:52
I think that’s a really big positive of technology.

27:54
It’s just like you’re saying, actually, actually seen it in the right way and having every every other part of your life kind of figured out and sorted out in a positive way.

28:02
So then you you also use technology in a positive way.

28:05
I think it’s important for balance, even though as us as adults, you have to have a balance.

28:09
We can’t sit on Facebook or TikTok or all afternoon.

28:12
You have to balance your life out to make sure that your mental health is as positive as possible.

28:18
All sad.

28:18
So what advice do you guys have for people trying to, you know, get into the early years And as you mentioned earlier, you want people to see this not as a job, but a career.

28:29
Do you have any advice for them?

28:31
To be honest, my advice tip for them would be to really research actually what you want to do in early years.

28:37
There are so many different areas that you could concentrate your skills on.

28:42
So baby care, send progression into school.

28:47
There is so many different transitions in early years that you just don’t know about.

28:52
Really look into it.

28:53
Really find your field that you love and you’ll absolutely bloom.

28:57
Yeah, I think touching on that, you know, as I said, do your research and don’t underestimate how there will be hard days, but they’ll also be really, really amazing days.

29:07
And it’s just embracing that duality of both of them.

29:10
You know, you’ve got to have the less than positive days to have the positive days to move forward.

29:15
And it’s such an amazing career that you’ve got different pathways.

29:21
As you said, you know, you can go in and do the typical entry level route and stay as an early as practitioner, be fantastic early as practitioners.

29:28
We need many more of them.

29:30
But I think it’s about just finding, finding what sets your assault on fire within the industry and kind of just chat again from a local authority point of view, in the news point of view, changing the wording and the narrative around early years.

29:45
You know, the more and more we say there’s an early years recruitment crisis, there’s a more, there’s an early years retention crisis.

29:51
You know, no one’s going to want to go into a workplace where there’s a crisis going on.

29:54
So it’s about just kind of just saying, yes, there are challenges with every other job that you go into.

30:00
There’s always going to be a challenge, but it’s about working together for that common outcome, which is the children, right?

30:06
Absolutely.

30:07
You know, showing that they, you’ll see adverts on TV for the NHS and specialising in different areas of heart surgery and physical development and things like that.

30:18
You can specialised in early years, you can specialised in the education sector as well.

30:25
Yeah, I think it’s like you, I’ve just said, really finding what you love and I think early years is so flexible.

30:31
You can just go and try different things.

30:33
It can be in the same setting.

30:35
You don’t have to kind of leave the setting and hop from like one job to another.

30:39
Actually, it’s about saying to your manager, for instance, I’d really like to have a go at working in the baby room.

30:44
I’ve never worked with babies, you know, So being open to different opportunities and trying new things because even in the same 1 nursery, for instance, there’s so many different opportunities and different skill sets that’s to develop as an educator and different ways of working.

31:00
The children really vary so much, you know, between being nine month old to a four year old.

31:06
Of course there’s a big difference there.

31:07
But even the the smaller age ranges as well and different kind of approaches and practises.

31:13
You know, we talked about forest schools, there’s outdoor play and, and more kind of woodland based play.

31:19
That’s not specifically an approach.

31:22
So there’s just all these little nuances and differences that you might kind of find a spark in and think actually that really interests me.

31:28
But it’s all about, I think giving things a go and being open to that rather than kind of just landing the job and sitting back and thinking, OK, this is it.

31:35
I didn’t like this.

31:36
I had a bad experience at this nursery.

31:38
I don’t like this nursery director.

31:39
You know what, I’m out and this isn’t for me.

31:41
Perhaps you’re not in the right nursery, you’re not working with the right.

31:44
And that goes in anything because that translates also to, you know, any other sector, right?

31:48
It’s like, or even when you’re learning, right, if you don’t have the right professor, you might think, I’m not interested in maths, but maybe it’s just the wrong professor.

31:55
So it’s it’s really seeking those opportunities, ladies, and reaping those rewards, Right.

31:59
Yeah, Well, I love that.

32:00
And, and honestly, thank you guys so much for bringing your expertise here today.

32:03
And, and, you know, sharing your opinions and advice on, you know, this, this subject of, you know, outdoor learning and play and, and children with son.

32:11
And I’m sure there’s so much information out there that, you know, will help, you know, parents and families as well become more aware of, you know, the impact that they could have, the positive impact they could have on their children’s life, as well as, you know, people looking to get into this sector.

32:27
So thank you so much for for coming to the Early Bloom podcast and having this chat today with me.

32:32
Thanks for having us.

32:33
Thank you.

32:34
Thank you.