Alex Dave: Digital Media Use, Parental Partnership and Online Safety in the Early Years

00:00:01

Welcome back. I’m Fliss, your host of Early Bloom, the podcast where we’re creating connections between everyone in the early years coming up in this episode.

00:00:59

Hello and thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Early Bloom podcast for today’s conversation. We’re welcoming Alex Dave. Alex has been working the sector for over 15 years. She is now currently a safeguarding education officer at the LG FL and she has a degree in early years. Alex, welcome to the podcast.

00:01:19

So, shall we start by getting to know you a little bit more and a little bit about your role at the LFL and what you do around?

00:01:26

Safeguarding. Thank you. Yeah, I’ve had quite a potted history, a potted career. So yeah, I studied early childhood studies at Warwick. I was really privileged to get some time going abroad. So I did a placement.

00:01:39

In Norway, working in a setting which was amazing and and after that I was also able to work in Ghana and in Japan. So I’ve worked in lots of different.

00:01:40

OK.

00:01:47

Island.

00:01:48

These and and then, yeah, falling into different roles, predominantly with disabled children and education. And for the past decade I’ve been working in safeguarding roles. So in the voluntary sector and in the education space, so a safeguarding manager lead DSL for an organisation. Yeah, and absolutely love the field of safeguarding.

00:02:10

And currently I work at LG FL, which is a charity. Our main core business is. We provide super cloud or broadband subscription to about 3000 schools across the country. And because we’re a charitable trust, any profit that we make goes back into the.

00:02:26

After so my role is part of that, so we offer safeguarding advice to any school who needs it across the country. And I do that so online offline safeguarding anything to do with safeguarding. Yeah, schools can come to.

00:02:33

And.

00:02:37

Us for support. Ohh. Amazing. And I guess kind of like where I came across the work that you’re doing, is there, there’s been a lot of research and data.

00:02:46

Published lately about.

00:02:48

The digital media use with children at the moment, and there’s been some quite shocking statistics. OK, Matt. And that’s where I came across, what the work that you do at LGPL. So for today’s conversation, we’re gonna be talking about digital media use and what you have been doing, the resources that you’ve made to support settings and kind of start talking about.

00:03:08

What settings can do? Because it’s not going away. Digital media technology is here and it’s here to stay. So we need to make sure that when settings are using it, they are staying safe. So can you tell us a little bit about the statistics that have come out? Cause I think it’d be really useful for the viewers and listeners to to.

00:03:23

Yeah. Brilliant.

00:03:24

So some very recent research from Ofcom, the regulator around communications, so they brought out some statistics in the last few weeks looking at children and parents media use and attitudes and the statistics are pretty similar to the previous year. But some of the key stats drawn out of that.

00:03:44

This age group that we’re talking about and bearing in mind their data only starts from the age of 3, so we don’t know about pre threes. But when we’re thinking about 3 to 5 year olds, what the data would tell us is.

00:03:56

Of that, most children aged 3 and above are online in some form or another, so 85% of 3 to 5 year olds are online now. The big caveat there, and I really like the fact that you’re talking about digital media use, is that that could mean a whole raft of of experiences. That does not mean every three to five year old.

00:04:17

Sitting there with the smartphone scrolling, scrolling through TikTok, there are lots of different behaviours and experiences that the children in that age group would have using digital media.

00:04:27

But predominantly all children nowadays are born into a family, a household where there is Internet enabled devices, whether that be your personal assistant at home, whether it be a phone, a tablet, your TV, your washing machine. Yeah, so many things now have a digital element. So we know that children are born into environments where digital media is ubiquitous.

00:04:48

It’s ever present the stats also then go on to tell us about what kind of devices children are using predominantly in the younger age group, we see children using tablets. Yeah. So about 2/3 of children will be using tablets.

00:05:02

And that that statistic does changes children age, so tablet use declines and smartphone use goes up. But when we’re thinking about three to five years, they’re typically using tablets. If they’re using anything at all.

00:05:15

Other statistics to be aware of are things like access to social media apps, yeah, so the Ofcom research has recently said that 56% of 3 to 5 year olds are using social media apps to message or call people in their life.

00:05:32

And again, it’s thinking, yes, that sounds shocking, but what does that data actually tell us? Could it be that they have a non residing parent and they’re using WhatsApp to talk to them to say goodnight at night? Is it that they’ve got family members out in Australia and they have communication sharing emojis or photos or whatever it is? So I I think there’s.

00:05:53

Always caution in these statistics not to be alarmed and running for the hills straight away. It’s trying to understand what does the behaviour and the experience actually look like, but 56% of of three to five year olds are said to be using some form of social media.

00:06:07

And then other stats are it’s 19% of 3 to 5 year olds have a have a phone, so nearly one in five three to five year olds have a phone which is yeah, very interesting to think about. And again it’s well, what are they doing on a phone? Why would a three to five?

00:06:25

Yeah.

00:06:25

Year old need a phone?

00:06:27

And and we can talk a little bit more about that. And then the other stat that was quite quite surprising to me was around live streaming. So nearly one in 2-3 to five year olds is using a live streaming app. So maybe they’re consuming.

00:06:45

Material on a live streaming app, so watching other peoples uploaded videos but then 12% are actually uploading videos themselves and from an online safety perspective that raises huge questions around their safety. And how do we keep children safe when they are live streaming? Who is consuming that content? What kind of risk?

00:06:57

Massive, massive questions.

00:07:05

Does that put children?

00:07:05

Up. Yeah, percent. Yeah. So with all that in consideration.

00:07:10

I think it just reiterates the point that it’s not going away digital media. It’s here to stay and I guess bringing it then back to early years and nurseries and preschools and settings, how can they use digital media in their setting? I think from my experience working in nurseries and like seeing it around not many settings.

00:07:31

Necessarily use it. I think that’s probably linked to the fact that it’s not really mentioned much in like statutory frameworks, so it doesn’t say that we have to use it. But then also I I actually did my dissertation on this when I was at Union Digital play and I had the argument of like well.

00:07:49

We’re growing up in this world, and if they’re not using it in nursery in a positive way and maybe they’re not getting the support at home to learn how to use it in a positive way, how are they ever going to learn to be literate, like with digital media? So I think like what we need to like, raise awareness about.

00:08:09

That it can be a positive thing and settings can use it in a good way, but then that all links back.

00:08:16

To how do they have an approach that has a positive effect on the children? So yeah, what would you recommend that settings do if they are going to use digital media?

00:08:25

Absolutely. And I think as soon as we start talking about digital media, people get alarmed and it’s such a polarising conversation. Yeah. Every time you look at a newspaper or go on your news feed, there is a conversation about smartphones, about social media, the impact on on young people.

00:08:44

What we are talking about is so much broader than that. So this concept of screen time is so unhelpful, but it’s the the language that’s used and what we’ve come to think is we’ve come to kind of synonymously think about screen time, being social media and smartphones. Now, neither of us would sit here and say that a 2-3 year old needs to be on a smartphone.

00:09:03

Scrolling through YouTube or scrolling through Tik Toks that that that just had no developmental benefit to children whatsoever.

00:09:09

But we know that digital media use can be so much broader than that. There was a really interesting study from Manchester Metropolitan University led by Rosie Fluitt, and she did a study called Toddlers Tech and Talk really pioneering research. And out of that came some interesting information about how children.

00:09:29

In the early years are using technology, and as you would hope, it’s not necessarily children sitting there scrolling through through YouTube or TikTok or whatever other social.

00:09:39

Media actually children in this age range are using it to consume content via their TV, so perhaps educational type programmes. They might be taking and looking at imagery, so photos of themselves getting to know themselves, getting to know family members, the world in which they live. So the the use of digital media is so broad.

00:10:00

If I think about my child who’s just coming out of the early year.

00:10:03

As his interaction with social, with digital media has been, for example, podcasts. Yeah, he loves books. He reads like an absolute Trojan. He reads so many books and he loves consuming literature. So actually we’ve added podcasts into his life because it’s just another medium. And it’s something that he can do independently. He accesses his his little code.

00:10:24

As a player and and for me, that’s really developmentally rich. It gives some independence. He can choose certain things that he listens to and it’s wonderful, but people don’t automatically think about those types of use of technology. Yeah. When the media and society as a whole is, is so focused on this smartphone debate. So I think we need to try and change the language.

00:10:44

And take a step back and say, what are we actually talking about here? We’re talking about how technology can perhaps enhance learning. Yeah. So why would we use technology as early childhood professionals? We know that children need experiences. They need experience.

00:11:00

Play we know that children need access to adults to support them with conversation, with scaffolding, all areas of the development. None of that should be replaced. Yeah, they need lots and lots of experiences. And technology should never replace any of that good stuff that we know are the key ingredients for good, healthy child development. But technology, technology.

00:11:21

Can augment I. I was thinking about an experience in in my home recently with the the recent expedition into space. So one at SpaceX went up into space.

00:11:30

OK.

00:11:30

Yeah, yeah.

00:11:33

And I sat with my child and watched the reentry of the spacecraft back into into, into onto Earth. And that was just an incredible experience to watch with him. And it was it was through technology. We sat down, we watched it together. We talked about how on Earth this was happening. We talked about the spacecraft, who was involved, who was inside.

00:11:52

And and that for me was a a really positive experience for me and my child to have that, but that relied upon us doing it together. Mm-hmm. It was a cooperative experience I was facilitating. I was talking to him through it. But you know that that kind of thing has really beneficial, developmentally beneficial.

00:12:12

Outcomes, potentially. So it’s thinking about the breadth of technology and how it can support us. So it should always be about the learning first, yeah. And the technology second, how can it help us if indeed it can, if we think about, for example, the concept of cultural capital? Yeah, and how many children don’t go to the beach, they don’t.

00:12:32

Access the beach because of perhaps physical geography, they’re nowhere near a beach. Perhaps they have physical mobility issues, which means they can’t actually physically go on a beach. Children that are are in hospital for long.

00:12:45

To the life actually digital media can provide access to some of these experiences to see what it’s like to be at a beach, to look at, fish to, to talk about shells that you might find on the beach. And I know it’s not exactly the same and we want children to experience, but actually digital media can help with cultural capital, yeah.

00:12:50

Yeah.

00:13:05

It can also help with inclusion. You know, we we’ve probably got experiences of of working with children where actually technology assists them to communicate.

00:13:12

Yeah, my home.

00:13:13

Percent.

00:13:14

Perhaps they’re communicating through symbols on a on a tablet. Perhaps they’re communicating through buttons that are are digitally connect connected, so there are so many great opportunities for inclusion for cultural capital and just extending different areas of play. You know, robotics bringing B bots into into.

00:13:33

Nurseries and into into settings and how that can really help around again, things like maths, math skills. We can talk about that. So yeah, it’s it’s thinking about how can technology support us. We don’t want to replace anything, but how can it extend the learning that we want for, for our children so.

00:13:52

You know, whenever we think about digital media, the first question should be why, yeah, why do we want to use this?

00:13:59

If you think about that in general, play in general, everything like the whole three eyes, the first thing you think is what is the intent? Yeah. So it just applies the exact same to digital media and technology use.

00:14:07

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think because of where we’re at.

00:14:12

In media in society we we kind of sometimes get distracted from that and actually let’s go back to what we know about children and what we know works for them. So if technology can help then why not use it? But let’s be mindful about the technology that we use. Let’s be mindful about what we’re curating, especially when it comes to content that children.

00:14:34

You know, sitting them in front of YouTube, scrolling through an iPad has no developmental benefit whatsoever, and in fact it it it that there is some suggestion that it impacts children’s attention span and and such like. So let’s be mindful about what we’re curating in terms of content and and and therefore, we really do in my view.

00:14:39

Yeah.

00:14:54

Need a an approach in our settings that is shared and understood by all practitioners of what? How are we deciding as a setting to use it now? I’m not saying that there’s there’s an exact science to this, so I don’t I I’m not sitting here.

00:15:08

Proposing that you know children should only have digital media access from this age or for this amount of time I I don’t think that’s the right approach. I think every setting is different and needs to come up with what works for them. But I think it should be on the premise that technology can support learning and if you as a a setting choose that then it’s just.

00:15:29

Being mindful, yeah, of how we’re using it, why we’re using it and and and also the adults involvement so.

00:15:39

What we’ve done is we’ve put together because, as you said said, there was, there is a lack of support for the sector around digital media use. So back in 2000 and.

00:15:50

21 the technology strand was taken out of the EYFS framework, and ever since there is no explicit to mention in the EFS framework about technology, which just seems.

00:15:53

Yes.

00:16:01

Bonkers and blows my mind.

00:16:01

It’s crazy and I think that’s where it’s like, I think that we went through a phase where maybe settings were starting to use it a bit more, even like in my like settings that I’ve worked in, we went from, I don’t know, you’d see technology and they’d get like an old landline mobile phone in the role role player. And it’s like, children don’t see that anymore. So like, what is technology technology to them? Isn’t that isn’t technology and like an old keyboard?

00:16:24

Or like I don’t know, recycled like computer like and that’s not what they’re seeing and what they’re playing with. So then I remember when I was in settings, we started to do a little bit with the Alexa like we do some like yoga through the Alexa, obviously like adult supporting and they used to love animal sounds.

00:16:27

Yeah.

00:16:44

Where you get Alexa to speak like animal sounds and we would go around and take it in turns and they’d ask for what animal they want and like then afterwards we.

00:16:52

Say oh, do you think that sounded like it? Shall I call maybe a shark? Could sound a bit different or like they like really build on their learning through that. So like, I think them taking away that technology we I think settings were slowly starting to like build it in and then taking it away now it’s just kind of like less settings like what do I do do I use it do I not like do we bring introduce it into the setting.

00:17:06

Yeah.

00:17:09

Absolutely.

00:17:13

Yeah.

00:17:13

Is technology that the children need to learn about it, and it’s just completely got rid of that.

00:17:18

And bearing in mind the.

00:17:19

Stats.

00:17:19

Yes.

00:17:20

If every child in this country is brought into an environment, it you know, comes into the world in an environment where technology is present, what are we doing if we’re not actually helping settings to think about good technology use at at best, we’re denying children the opportunity to learn and become digitally literate.

00:17:20

It’s paging.

00:17:32

Yes.

00:17:40

By the time they go to school, when computing will be part of their curriculum.

00:17:43

And at worst, we’re putting them at huge risk of harm because through our work we know that sometimes settings don’t have the knowledge about, for example, safety controls. Yeah. And because there’s no explicit mention in the statutory framework we’re we’re just leaving this vacuum for people to come up with what they think is good practise and I think.

00:18:03

Some settings will be doing amazing work in this in this space, but others there there is a real risk of harm to children and that’s why we think that there needs to be much more explicit mention about online safeguarding and about how we can effectively use digital media in the early years so.

00:18:19

To kind of help bridge that gap. Whilst hopefully we get some statutory guidance in the future at LG FL, we’ve come up with a policy guide to help settings think about some of the key principles of using digital media and thinking about online safety in their settings. So it’s absolutely free to download on our website and some of the things we think about we cover in that policy.

00:18:41

Side are.

00:18:43

How do you get that whole setting approach so it’s not just about online safety, it’s about do our staff understand how to report concerns? How are we using technology? What is our approach? So for example, some quite recent research from Rebecca Door.

00:19:03

Looked at how children are able to transfer their learning from online into the offline world? Yeah, and what she found is that actually children under the age of three find it extremely difficult to transfer learning from online to offline. So from 2D into the 3D World.

00:19:22

So that’s really important information for us to have, because if we think you know there’s multi billion # industry out there.

00:19:29

That is throwing content at us that’s throwing games at us and saying if your child plays this game, they’re going to be a genius by the age of 6. You know most.

00:19:37

Of that is.

00:19:37

Is utter rubbish because what we know is that children learn best with an adult, with a human present, somebody next to them talking to them, exploring materials and helping to build that learning.

00:19:49

So putting them in front of a device with a game on it with with a piece of content on it typically has no impact whatsoever. So as a setting that’s really useful to know, because actually we we think how do we transfer that into a nursery or a child minding setting or what have.

00:20:02

You then actually children under the age of three don’t really benefit from that type of content, but 3 and over. Maybe it does have a place. So what is our settings pedagogical approach to using digital media and making sure that that is consistent across our staff team because as we know individuals have different.

00:20:05

So.

00:20:08

Yeah.

00:20:23

Opinions about digital media use, and I’m sure many of our settings, have staff who find the use of digital media quite scary, quite overwhelming. They don’t want to use it, so it’s how do we create consistency across across our settings. So thinking about our approach.

00:20:38

How do we incorporate that into policy? Also thinking about the security of any digital media we do use so about our broadband controls, about the actual security controls on the device itself, any filtering that we might want to put in place, thinking about if we use any search engines.

00:20:58

How do we enforce safe search on search engines? So there’s a lot to think about in terms of actual security controls in settings and how to prevent children from inadvertently coming into contact with.

00:21:10

With content that we don’t want them to come into contact with, so there’s lots to do with controls and and then also thinking about things like how do we work with parents? Because even if we as a setting say we don’t really want to use technology for whatever reason, your children are going to be going home and they have access to technology.

00:21:29

So we are doing them a disservice in not supporting parents and not supporting children with digital literacy because they are going to be exposed to to argue whether we like it or not.

00:21:39

So how do we work with parents? And I choose that that language very purposefully because it is about how do we work with them? How do we collaborate, engage with parents so that they don’t feel they’re doing the wrong thing because there’s this massive feeling of of blame and shame towards parents at the moment that you can’t really do do right.

00:21:48

Yeah.

00:21:57

MHM.

00:22:00

Wrong. Do you wrong for right. Remember the the way around of that? Right. But but parents are are are always blamed you. You’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. So if you give your your child technology, then there’s a whole bunch of people that will tell you you’re doing the wrong thing and vice versa.

00:22:16

So how do we support parents to understand about technology use? Because let’s not forget they will be using technology and they will be exposed to all the disinformation and misinformation that’s out there, whether that be the marketing of companies, saying you should use this game or let your child access this content because everybody’s.

00:22:36

Doing it so they will be exposed to that and if it’s not in the statutory guidance, you know we don’t have health visitors really talking about digital media and online safety use. So we’re we’re just kind of leaving them to navigate their way through this, this, this as well. So how do we support parents and and and that for me is a really critical part of settings.

00:22:59

Settings responsibilities is talking to parents, finding out how they are, what how they are using digital media, what they’re using it for, and what they might need support with because.

00:23:11

I’m sure there will be parents who say they struggle with managing use of device at home, whether it results in tantrums or or behavioural issues. When stuff’s taken away.

00:23:17

Yes.

00:23:22

It’s going to say there’s probably many practitioners out there or managers who have had a call from a parent or your hand over and said I just can’t get this screen away both times really hard. Like they want to watch it and like, if you’re a practitioner or a manager receiving that information from a parent, you need to know how to best support them. They’ve come to you for advice, for help, and if you as a setting.

00:23:25

Yeah.

00:23:29

Yeah.

00:23:37

Yeah, yeah.

00:23:42

Don’t have an approach to how you see technology or how you use it, how you work with parents.

00:23:46

Yeah.

00:23:48

You’re kind of left a bit like maybe with your own like judgement, your own stereotypes around it when they’re coming to you. Yeah. So I think it it is needs that whole approach cause then you could even make them feel better by saying look, we use it in our setting. We do do these things. This said child loves it when we’re doing this and like you can give them examples of their learning then you can like point them in the direction of what do you need help.

00:24:09

What is it that’s really struggling and work with them from there, so I think it is probably a thing that many managers and practitioners hear from parents all the time.

00:24:10

Absolutely.

00:24:17

Yeah.

00:24:18

Yeah, and.

00:24:20

As as parents, as professionals, we know that raising children is tough. Yeah. Yeah. And not all use of devices is equal. So you know, if we think about a a parent who’s curated a piece of content for their their 3-4 year old to watch whilst they cook dinner, because actually they need their child out of the kitchen for safety purposes and they need to be able to cook dinner.

00:24:41

And they need that time. So a 20 minute, half an hour curated piece of piece of content, my child’s massively into Blue Peter at the moment. And I think that the amount of developmental potential in blue. Peter. Yeah, because I’m able to then extend that learning with him after he’s watched it, you know.

00:24:57

The the the.

00:24:58

That we cannot compare all digital media use equally like yeah, that we and we can’t judge parents for for those types of choices. So yeah, how do we do it in a supportive, empathetic, non judgmental way. And if parents are struggling with behaviour then we can help them with that. If they are struggling with sleep hygiene.

00:25:19

Sleep routines because of technology. Then of course we can advise and we can support support them with that. So it’s finding out.

00:25:26

Yeah. What? What? They are using technology for how they’re using it and then how we as a setting can help them to do that as safely and as beneficially for children as.

00:25:31

Yeah.

00:25:36

Possible. I think you mentioned there about how like the scenario of like for 15 minutes then watching some content. I think I saw one of the resources on LG FL and it broke down.

00:25:45

That there’s actually like different versions of screen time, but like that’s not many like people probably know that like they broke. I think there was like passive transactional and then the next one something to do with like the development and stuff.

00:25:51

Yeah.

00:25:53

Yeah.

00:25:56

Yeah, yeah.

00:25:58

And even just breaking it down in that can make you see that like screens can be used in such a different way. Or instead of just having this perception that screen time is just one thing, it’s such a bad thing. And I think even just simple things like that and breaking that down on like a little bit of in the newsletter and don’t be scared by the word screen time.

00:26:09

Yeah.

00:26:18

Yeah.

00:26:19

Like this is what it actually means and what it looks like in different scenarios and.

00:26:24

And that’s why settings and parents need support with this, because there is so much.

00:26:28

There, it’s really hard to navigate well. What is the good stuff? Yeah, because everything will tell you that it’s wonderful and that it’s going to help your child in XY and Z ways, but actually not all of that is accurate. So it would be really helpful for settings to be able to say to parents. Have you seen this? You know, instead of the fast real fast?

00:26:44

Yeah.

00:26:49

Short real video content on various streaming platforms or social media sites, which is not good for kids. It’s like the junk food of digital media. It’s it’s not great for kids, so we need to get rid.

00:27:01

Of that, and we need to be replacing it with stuff that does help children, whether that be because it gets them physically moving, you know, you said about yoga, there’s lots of other things out there, programmes that support children with physical activity. So whether it makes them physically move, whether it helps them to be creative, you could be around singing, it could be around learning music, it could be around.

00:27:23

Paying particular instrument, whether it be about creation. So creating of something. So my example of Blue Peter, my child watched it and then automatically wanted to create something that he’d seen on the programme, so that then extended to an activity.

00:27:39

Where all the paints were out, all the the paper was out and we were creating something that he’d seen. So that had led to then a really creative activity for him and also exploration of the world. You know, there’s some great content out out there and I would typically say BBC iPlayer has some really good content around exposure to families of different demographics they’ve got.

00:28:00

Programmes around food from around the world, you know, there’s some really cool content on there that can actually help children, but it’s that short real fast pace in your face sounds, movements, content that we just want to try and stop children having access to because it doesn’t help them.

00:28:03

Yes.

00:28:10

Yeah.

00:28:18

And there’s some research to suggest that that is affecting children’s attention spans because they are used to fast-paced content and then when we ask them to sit down and read a book, for example, that is so less stimulating for them that they find it hard to concentrate. And likewise there is some.

00:28:37

Some research that came out of the.

00:28:38

Lights that looked at how that type of content being used with children when they are having big emotions. So perhaps in a restaurant when they’re hungry, we might give them a tablet with this type of content on it or on a long car journey, we give them a phone with this. This time type of short real content on and the impact that that’s then.

00:28:58

Having on children because what it does is it’s so in your face that it distracts you from the emotion you’re you’re feeling.

00:29:04

That’s what. Yeah, they’re not able to self regulate because they’re not even know knowing that they’re feeling that way. Yeah.

00:29:07

Absolutely.

00:29:10

Absolutely. And and what we then have is children who don’t know how to cope with hunger. Yeah, because that content is display.

00:29:17

Missing that feeling that they’re having, and so they’re not developing the awareness of their own bodily feelings. And we as then, then adults aren’t helping them to understand and and to to regulate. And likewise, you know, going on a car journey. There’s nothing. There’s nothing better than children being bored. They come up with really exciting.

00:29:37

Yeah.

00:29:37

Conversations, interesting conversations or games. Yeah. And they need that. They they need that kind of opportunity to feel those feelings. And if we’re using that type of content, then we’re we’re actually doing children a disgusting.

00:29:52

So yeah, I would love to see that type of content. Just go go shoved out the way for children in the early years and us really think about curating good quality content that links to development.

00:29:56

Yeah.

00:30:05

Yeah. So how do we support parents with accessing some of that? Because you only know what you know, right? Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:10

Yeah, yeah, I’ve seen a lot of things around like, obviously how we as like adults use it as well. I mean, not necessarily like the settings because you don’t have your phones but also, but also yeah, in the same time in the settings, you do have a tablet and you’re doing your daily Diaries, you’re doing your observations they are seeing.

00:30:28

Like parents, practitioners, role models around them using it. So it’s how are we also modelling positive use of technology to them. So like if you as a parent or whatever or consuming this fast pace?

00:30:42

In front of them. But then you’re telling them they can’t do it. It’s just getting that balance, right, isn’t it? And being that positive role model as well? Yeah. But I always think like there’s been such, like, great experiences of even when I was a practitioner and I was writing up an observation or doing a daily diary and the child would come.

00:30:58

We take photos together, they look at it. They like, want to know what you’re doing and teach them about, oh, can you press that button? That means you’ve just sent that to Mommy, and now Mommy’s going to get it on her phone. And it’s like a really nice experience. But I think if they’re just seeing it, not having an understanding of what you’re doing. Yeah, with the technology, it kind of like doesn’t paint a great picture.

00:31:18

Yeah, yeah.

00:31:18

There. So I even just saying like I’m.

00:31:20

Just having a look at this today like and or even just not necessarily doing it around them all the time. And you’re modelling that positive use.

00:31:26

MHM.

00:31:28

As well, yeah, we’ve done a, we’ve done a bit of work at LFL around that because we are children’s biggest role models and they are watching us from day dot. They will be watching us and seeing what we do and we need to be good role models.

00:31:34

Yeah.

00:31:41

And and the rhetoric around kind of children’s use of phones and they shouldn’t be going onto social media and they shouldn’t be spending all this time. And then you go but what are you doing as a parent? How are you reflecting the values and and the behaviours that you want to see in your child? How are you reflecting that and being a good role?

00:31:49

Yeah.

00:31:55

Yeah.

00:31:56

More so, yeah, absolutely. We as adults, we are gatekeepers to technology. So we have a really important job of deciding what children do and don’t access, and we need to make sure we understand that really important role.

00:32:11

But we are also enablers. Mm-hmm. And we are also role models. And it’s those 3 roles that I think we should be mindful of and aware of and think about. Yeah. What is my child learning when they try to talk to me? And actually, I’m scrolling on my phone and they can’t interact with me. And that affects that connection that I have with that child that affects the attachment potentially if it happens.

00:32:32

Over a period of.

00:32:33

Time. So yeah, that how we are are are as role models and and the importance of just ongoing conversation about technology. We shouldn’t be frightened as you gave some great great examples there of we shouldn’t be afraid of talking about technology and how it helps us how it hinders us and what kind of good safe.

00:32:54

The technology is in our lives because that should be starting as soon as children have access to technology, which, as we know, is birth. Yeah. So we need to be having those regular conversations because that’s how children will trust us.

00:33:07

And they will learn from us. And if things ever do go wrong in the future and they have a worry around something that’s happening online, then they will feel more confident to talk to us. Yeah. If we kind of just shut technology away as this bad thing, then why would children talk to us about it? Yeah, they’ll just, they’ll just seek support somewhere else. And and that could be a really.

00:33:25

Yeah.

00:33:27

Bad experience. Negative, yeah.

00:33:28

Yeah, bad experience with.

00:33:29

Yeah.

00:33:30

So yeah, I think we need to embrace the technology is here, as you say, and to think about the role we have to play and and having that whole setting approach for me is really critical. So yeah, I hope that the policy guide might help to to, to give people some ideas to, to start with how they do that. And at the back of the guide.

00:33:49

Yeah.

00:33:52

What we’ve done is we’ve come up with a template for a charter, so a digital media and online safety charter for settings, because if this is your first time.

00:34:01

Really thinking about digital media use and you want to engage your staff team, you want to engage your parents and your children about what this all means. There maybe a Charter is quite a good starting point because it’s quite accessible and you can have a really good dialogue about some of those things in the Charter. So I hope that that.

00:34:17

Might help settings as well.

00:34:17

Yeah. When I first read through that guide literally gave settings they could go away and they know what they need to do, the steps they need to take to come up with this whole setting approach. Yeah, I would really recommend it. It was very, very full and very insightful.

00:34:29

For for surfing.

00:34:29

Yeah. And if settings then do you want to go a little bit?

00:34:32

Whether based on feedback from from professionals, what we’ve done is we’ve developed an online safety audit. Yeah. So if you want to audit your current provision, so that might be around your systems, your actual tech and how safe that is around your staff training your approaches, we’ve put together this online.

00:34:53

Safety audit, which is quite encompassing, it’s quite a big document, but it really allows you to go through that step by step and think what are we doing? What is the great practise we’re already doing.

00:35:03

And are there any gaps and how might we want to fill those gaps? So I think it’s a really comprehensive, it’s really robust for schools. It’s something that they have to do. So it’s written into the statutory guidance that they have to do an online safety audit, a review of their online safety every year. I think that’s really good practise. I think there’s stuff that we can learn in the early years from how schools.

00:35:19

Yes.

00:35:23

Have got to grips with digital media and online safety. I’m not suggesting we mirror and we mimic everything they do, but I think there is some really good practise. You know, if you look at the statutory guidance, keeping children safe and education for schools.

00:35:38

Because it’s acknowledged how important technology is in in everybody’s lives. Now when we talk about safeguarding, we automatically talk about online safeguarding as well as offline. And unless we’re explicitly explicitly mentioning that, then I don’t think we are going to be keeping children.

00:35:58

As safe as we can online in, in early year settings.

00:35:58

Yeah.

00:36:00

I think even in the safeguarding bit in the Eli first it literally the the only reference to technology is like how mobile phones want smartwatches are used or something very quite very simple little sentence. And then yeah, images. Yeah, and like smartwatches and all that.

00:36:12

It’s very much about images.

00:36:16

The cameras and then like the little bit at the end saying we advise you look at the this next bit of guidance which is a hyperlink to somewhere else. So it’s like why can’t you have that like built in there and like settings would like look at that straight away and like this is part of our safeguarding and like we need to like build this.

00:36:23

Yeah.

00:36:25

Yeah.

00:36:32

Into everything that we do? Yeah, because even if you’re not using a lot of digital media in your setting.

00:36:38

You’re still needing to be aware of online risks. What if a parent reports something to you? What if you go on social media and you see one of your children through your setting on there and you have a concern about whatever you’ve seen online? You know, we still need to have it.

00:36:43

Yeah.

00:36:53

Embedded within our policies, within our practise, within our training, because it otherwise, it’s this massive elephant in the room. Kids are online. They’re using technology, yet we’re not talking.

00:36:59

Yeah, yeah.

00:37:02

About it. Yeah, it’s it’s crazy when you put it that way. Here. It’s crazy.

00:37:07

But yeah, so all the resources that you’ve spoke about and I mean I had a look yesterday just to go even more in depth than I have been on LG, FL and like the my ohh gosh, the amount of support that is on there for parents, practitioners, all the simple videos, the resources is great. Yeah, I would highly recommend and I will link them all in this description and the show notes for everyone.

00:37:26

To have access to and that brings us towards the end of our conversation and the podcast, and I want to end it by you completing the sentence. To me, working in the early years is.

00:37:41

Yeah. OK.

00:37:44

It’s a tough one. If I was going to say personally my time, I remember my time working in the early years, being tiring. It’s a full on job. I take my hat off to anyone working in the sector.

00:37:50

Yeah, yeah.

00:37:56

But for me it is such a critical.

00:38:01

Time of children’s lives, and I personally think that it’s very undervalued, yes.

00:38:02

Yeah.

00:38:10

We know that habits form young that what happens in the early years forms that pathway. Yeah, for children into their childhoods, and much further beyond into their adult lives. So it is such a critical.

00:38:23

Critical area and yeah, I I take my hat off to anyone working in the sector and hope that the work that we are doing is is supporting practitioners with this with.

00:38:30

Yeah. So valuable to the set for all the work. Yeah, well, thank you, Alex. It’s been lovely to.

00:38:35

Thank you. Thanks very much.